Is Somalia at a turning point?
Cameroon’s insurgents splinter
How can tech and AI benefit ordinary Malawians?
What does the rise of the far right in France mean for Africa and Africans?

Battered by drought and flooding, laid low by more than 30 years of civil war, as Somalia prepares to accede to a seat on the UN Security Council and joins the East African Community, we ask a senior member of the Prime Minister’s Office could the hostilities between Mogadishu and Addis Ababa over Somaliland descend into all -out war? Plus, why are so many Somali baby girls being named Istanbul? ABDIHAKIM AITE, Director of Climate Change and Food Security talks to Africa Here and Now.

Malawi’s government has embarked on an ambitious programme of digitisation and AI to improve service delivery and governance. We ask Martine Kalima, Manager for Tech and Digital Transformation in Malawi for the Tony Blair Institute, how is digital transformation even possible when fewer than 20% of Malawians have access to electricity?
Guest panellist, Veronique Edwards, recalls the introduction of the Double Decker Bus and how locals were perplexed by the absence of an additional driver on the top deck. Veronique also draws our attention to the ongoing conflict in her home country, CAMEROON which is enduring an insurgency whose fighting groups have now splintered, and few know who is fighting for what. What started as a secession bid by Anglophone Cameroonians has now descended, Vero says, into chaos with millions of people too afraid to return to their villages.

Patrick, with a very intermittent connection in Paris, manages to tell us about the mood in France as the far right look set to make advances in legislative elections and why that matters to Africa and to Africans. Even Les Blues are concerned.



@somalia @HornOfAfrika @hamza_africa Africasacountry @Africanunion_official @African_stream @Hollywoodafricanspod @africaisnotacountry


S2 E6 Transcript

Martine: Hello and welcome to Africa Here and Now, the conversation you've always wanted to have about the continent. I'm Martine Dennis. Today, as African Union troops continue their gradual withdrawal from Somalia, even with a replacement AU force, can Somali forces contain armed groups like al Shabaab? A seat on the UN Security Council.

How far has Mogadishu come on its path to peace, prosperity and security? We ask a senior member of the PM's office. And how can African countries make best use of tech, including AI? We have a look at Malawi, which is embracing digital transformation, and yet less than 20 percent of the population have access to electricity.

And as France prepares to vote in a snap election, why the rise at the far right in Europe matters to Africa and to Africans. Let's get started. Many of you will now be familiar with the wonderful Patrick Smith, editor of Africa Confidential. Hey Patrick!

Patrick's a bit frozen at the moment, but, um, I reckon that he will unfreeze at some point. But making his debut on Africa Here and Now is the superb Veronique Edwards, a talented veteran of international broadcasting. Vero is standing in for Donu, who's actually traveling at the moment, so Vero, welcome.

It's so lovely to see you. Thank you, Martin. Thank you. Thank you. Long overdue. Thank you. First, I've been struck by how many people have been suggesting that Somalia has reached a critical point, a milestone in its development. It's still one of the poorest nations on earth. It's beset by extreme weather events and conflict.

It's ranked at the very bottom of 180 countries for corruption by Transparency International. Yet, there are other developments like being elected to the UN Security Council, which has been widely celebrated. It's joining the East African community. But a fifth of the population face crisis of emergency food insecurity.

We can find out more about where Somalia is today. Earlier, Patrick and I caught up with Abdi Hakim Ainte, who's director of food security and climate change in the Somali prime minister's office. Now, Somalia is being described as the second most vulnerable country to climate change by the Green Climate Fund.

And obviously, you've had major droughts. We've had at least three major droughts. Um, followed by catastrophic flooding. What's the situation now? 

Abdi: Well, first of all, thank you for having me here again, and I appreciate your team for really, uh, bringing it to my voice to this, uh, important and new broadcast.

So, uh, yeah, Somalia is still continuing to face, uh, those cyclical droughts that too often comes, uh, in about a year or two. Two years or so, uh, primarily because of the climate shocks that are causing these, uh, droughts and, and, and, uh, sometimes it's famine. So we are now going through a season called goo, which is a rainy season.

And in fact, this morning, as we record, there is a heavy pouring rain on the streets of Mogadishu and some part of the Somalia. So what happens is that sometimes those rains, they can, uh, rain on a vulnerable communities that are makeshifted in camps in a rural area and, uh, outskirts of Mogadishu, and they don't live in a strong, I mean, we're talking about, uh, Uh, close to 3.

8 million people who live in this makeshift camps, you know, this tent. And when the rain happens, you can expect the result. There's no food. There's no water. There's no electricity. They don't have the luxury of living in strong houses. So it displaces. So the rain displaces. And then it creates that, uh, digital cycle of these people needing a service and support.

And this is exactly. What I think is the core of the question should be, I mean, how do you build a strong and resilient society that can withstand those shocks that are coming in every two years or 

Martine: so? Now, the latest figures that I've come across, Abdi, is that about a fifth of the population is facing emergency food insecurity, which is just one level above famine.

Isn't it? What's the government's response, given that the humanitarian appeal is desperately underfunded? 

Abdi: That's right. I mean, uh, the current government led by President Hassan Sheikh Mahmoud, together with my Prime Minister. Um, has put forward a very bold vision, and that vision has, um, laid out clearly that we need to lift this population out of this poverty trap.

How you do that? Then you need a vision, then you need a plan, and then you need our resources. So it is in these three layers that you have to, uh, work it together and make sure that you create an environment for those people. So as a government, we have a plan. And our plan that is that, you know, we need, first of all, to understand the magnitude of the challenge and the magnitude of the challenge is absolutely clear.

I mean, it's a, it's as you said, people are very much on the borderline of a famine. And if that happened, It's absolutely catastrophic of the size of the scale of 1993. So what we're doing as a government, everything that we could possibly do, number one, by renegotiating with our partners on terrorism, who are our partners.

Our partners are Um, those external donor community were financing our development programs and the humanitarian community and asking a very simple question. Should we continue to have a 2 billion humanitarian money in every in every year with virtually no concrete impact? Or should we start a new paradigm?

And that new paradigm is the one that we are heavily focused on. And that's why we have, um, now something called the Somali National Transformational Plan. It's very much the development vehicle for Somalia for the next four years, and it has a pretty clear layouts and plan as to how we can move out out of this humanitarian emergency 

Martine: crisis.

Give us the basis of what that plan is. I mean, you have been, um, dramatically aided, haven't you, by the decision of the Paris Club creditors in March, uh, to, to, uh, absolve Somalia of what, 90%? Of its 2 billion debt 

Abdi: that was burdened on on us that I was lurking in our shoulder for the last 30 plus years. So they have written off, but that did not have been out of a blue.

It just happened at 10 years of extreme painful reform economic package that we have negotiating and collaborating with the with the global. Financing institutions such as the World Bank and IMF, but that is the beginning of the new journey. It's not the end of itself. So what we're starting is a new journey that would entail a new physical discipline, and that discipline would involve.

You know, restructuring our revenue mobilization institutions, restructuring our governance structures, trying to come up with, uh, very bold and transformative, uh, market based, uh, sort of, uh, programs. The new National Transformational Plan, which is now, uh, being rolled out, contains four major pillars. I mean, there's economic, there's a governance pillar.

And it is a social, uh, pillar and his economic pillar, and it is a food security and climate pillar, all of which reinforcing one another. And it has a very clear ambition plan, which is, I mean, how do you transform your governance institutions that will then inform your social and economic pillars? And to do that, then you need a concerted effort to Uh, with all the, uh, government institutions, both at the national level, as well as the sub national level.

Patrick: Abdi, how much of the economy do you think is in what they call the formal sector? I mean, in terms of that this government can actually have And how much is, is just really decentralized, privatized, uh, informal activity that you can't really get taxed from and you can't really regulate? How much is, is that changing now?

Abdi: I think that's a very good question. So the, the informal economic is very vast. And it's a very elaborate one that it, you know, stretches across the country, and I think the government have, uh, you know, gradually starting to levy tax on those private sectors. For example, the Minister of Finance is now introducing a new taxation, uh, sort of a regime on the telecommunication industry, which I think is the By far the most biggest, uh, you know, money making ministration in the countries.

And then we also introduced a new taxation also on the housings and as well as other informal economic sectors. It's not going to be an easy one. I mean, as we gradually, you know, strengthen governance, instructions and institutions, then, then we will be able then to put a tax on those informal economic.

And that's how they connected 

Martine: to one another. Because of course Transparency International still ranks Somalia as the most corrupt of 180 countries around the world, so there's quite a lot to be done, right? Well, that's based on perception. 

Patrick: Is that really fair, Abdi? I mean, there are a lot of very corrupt governments out there.

Why do you think they're picking on Somalia? 

Abdi: I don't know the fairness to it, but again, remember, the index is predicated based on perception, right? And because of, by virtue of our government, our inability, our institutions to perform and deliver service, the international, Transparency International builds an assumption that Somalia is the most corrupt country, which to me, I don't subscribe to 

Martine: that assertion.

Okay, fair enough. Abdi, we haven't talked about, of course, the other major factor in life in Somalia, and that is security. Um, with the African Union troops continuing with a gradual withdrawal, uh, from, uh, Somalia, there is, of course, great concerns that the Somali national forces are not capable of managing the armed groups.

Among them, of course, al Shabaab. What can you tell us, then, about the state of preparedness of the Somali National Forces who are being trained by the Americans, by the Brits, among others? So 

Abdi: the Somali National Army, like every government, uh, government institution, they are also undergoing through, uh, very tough reform.

And, uh, we've started off about a decade or so, uh, military that is nearly incapable of, you know, defending the, the, the airport and the, the basic key installation of government, but now able to go out in front line and, you know, fight and battle with the Al Shabaab. So. So the army is really going through that reform and, uh, and, and there is a degree of confidence in the public that the army first time ever showing a great resilience and pushing the Al Shabaab out of major towns.

You know, the president was out in the front line and was leading the war from the front, uh, and the Somali National Army, uh, Without the support of basically, I would say, the African Union troops have captured and regained it. Large swat of territory from Al-Shabaab, that itself IE the is signifies the, the, the, um, the strong and the, the robustness of our, uh, of the army.

Uh, but it's, again, it's uh, it's a long way to go. Uh, I think as you know, now we have, uh, an ATIs, which is looking out how the, the African, uh, foreign troops, which has been, uh, present in Somalia over the last two decade. Transition out of the country and hand over the power to the Somali army. This week, the African Union have adopted a new mandate, a new resolution, which is essentially, uh, you know, downgrade this and the number of the troops into, I mean, a sizable number, but will only patrol and protracted.

key installations such as the port and the airport and the the embassies and the green zones. But it would give a room for the Somali national army to very much control and run the business in the country security affair. 

Patrick: Abdi, um, how much control do you think The federal government in Mogadishu has over the rest of the country.

I know when the President Hassan Sheikh first came in, one of his big strategies to combat al Shabaab was to form alliances with the regional chiefs, and that seemed at first to be very unethical. very successful. But, uh, over the last year or so, there seem to have been some glitches in that relationship.

Abdi: Well, the federal member states, I think they are part of the, uh, the federal structure of the country. Um, our governance structure is a tool, is a tool. Two system governors. There's a fellow government, uh, in Mogadishu, and then there's a fellow member states in the regions. I think it's the president took a very, uh, bold, uh, and courageous, you know, position that, uh, that he should strengthen his collaboration with those federal member states.

Their relations so far has been a very good, and that's why, you know, the war on Shabbat was making a significant headway. Had it not been the collaboration between the federal member states and the government of Mogadishu, it could have definitely taken a different turn. So it is that relation, I think, the war is gaining and making a momentum, and I think that's why there is also a modicum of stability, even in their respective areas of those 

Martine: federal member states.

But Mogadishu does have a bit of a problem on its hands with regard to Somaliland, obviously, and the arrangement that has been struck with Addis Ababa. That is a continuing problem for Mogadishu, isn't it? Not to mention also the situation regarding a new constitution, and Puntland, who is also Cozying up with Addis Ababa and is not, uh, and is blocking the passage of this new constitution.

Well, Somalia is a 

Abdi: completely different to Bulgaria, Martina. Uh, I mean, this is, uh, uh, an estate that has been, um, seeking a succession over the last 30 plus years. And to their credit, really made a significant, uh, headway. Both in terms of their economic as well as their social political infrastructures.

Uh, but that until, uh, the first January of this year when they have signed a unilateral, uh, MOU with Ethiopia government, which essentially grants Ethiopia government, the Ethiopia, to, uh, have a unilateral access in, in some part of Somalia. And that has created a new. Tension between Mogadishu, Edessa, and as well as in Hargeisa.

And I think that's where I think the, uh, now the biggest, uh, challenge, uh, lies in, in how do we, I mean, how do we make sure that Somaliland continues to be part and parcel of the federalist structure of the country, which they are claiming they're not part of it. 

Martine: But hostilities between, uh, Mogadishu and Edessa are such that there is the prospect of Mogadishu Throwing out 8, 000 Ethiopian troops that are part of the African Union mission.

Is that likely to happen? So the national security 

Abdi: officer and the security apparatus team made that very clear that should Ethiopia continue its infringement on Somalia's territorial integrity, then that would also be a clear violation in our territory. If they continue to do that, then the likelihood of the Ethiopian troops to withdraw would be very eminent.

I mean, no country would accept a complete infringement on their territory. I think that's what Ethiopia has been flagrantly doing over the last three months, since they have entered an MOU agreement with Somaliland. 

Patrick: Abdi, how bad could this actually get between Ethiopia and Somalia? Yeah. I mean, I'll.

Older characters would remember the horrendous wars in the 1970s, the Ogaden war and, and, and so on. Do you think that there is a diplomatic solution to this? And given the already bad instability in the region, um, are you putting like a hundred percent into, into preempting any, any, any? Any breakout into full conflict over this matter?

Abdi: I think from the government side, we are doing everything possible that we should not escalate it into a full blown war. I think no one will benefit that. We know that, you know, you know, going out of war, it's going to be a devastating and it would have a cascading impact across the whole of Africa. I think that is the least scenario that we're looking into. 

I mean, all options are on the table. We've been very consistent and clear that the Ethiopian government, that they should have to back down and roll back their decision, uh, with the MOU. Should they choose that one? I think we have a peaceful and alternative path that will also allow them to also access in Somalia's sea.

I think that's what the, what the president articulated very well. 

Patrick: Are you getting enough support in your position from the African Union? Because after all, what is proposed is essentially setting up a new country by Ethiopia and Somaliland, and that goes against the African Union's rules. Do you think the African Union should be doing more to support Mogadishu's position on this?

Abdi: I think the African Union made it very clear as well. I mean, I, I mean, I thought that we, we all know that, you know, they made it, uh, unequivocally clear that they respect Somalia's territorial integrity as enshrined in the African Union Charter. Which says clearly that, you know, no country's sovereignty should be infringed upon.

Uh, and I think, you know, I don't think so, you know, African Union, nor any other countries around the world would accept, you know, uh, infringement on other, uh, countries territory. So, yes, I believe that the AU is definitely on our side on this matter, and they made it very clear. 

Martine: Can you tell me about the significance of foreign investment at the moment in Somalia?

I'm particularly thinking of the UAE and also of Turkey. Turkey is running the airport and the seaport at least. How significant is that to stabilizing and, and, uh, pushing Somalia along its path to peace and prosperity, which is of course the objective. 

Abdi: The economic recovery of the country is incredibly and remarkably encouraging on many ways.

You have an virtually all international, not all, but I would say major international carriers, such as Turkish airline, Qatar Airways, Kenya Airways, Ethiopian Airways, all of them have a daily flight coming out of Mogadishu. And this all signifies that, you know, we are on a path of a full economic recovery.

And I think there is a degree of confidence among the foreign investors that, you know, Somalia not only Um, is a story of a security or a story of a job, but also a story that should be invested in. And I think that is really coming in full force. There are a number of investments taking place in the country, uh, primarily within the telecommunication and health sector.

Um, some of them, uh, by the Turkish and some of them by also other Europeans and foreign countries. And that is really It's sweeping in the country, you know, for example, the UK is investing. Uh, uh, so Mellon sport, uh, you know, there are also other investment in, in other key economic infrastructures in the country.

So we are slowly and gradually, uh, coming out of the wood and there is now a huge and positive, um, uh, note to be, uh, uh, to be positive about as well. 

Martine: And I've heard that there is a new trend sweeping many parts of Somalia and many girls born are being called Istanbul. Is that right?

Abdi: One thing is very clear. We have unbiased love for Turkey. Uh, simply because you know, they're not not only a Muslim, but also they have been with us when I think we needed the most. And that's about a 10 years ago when somebody was facing a biblical drought that was putting millions of somebody at risk.

And that's when the president of Turkey, Erdogan. Visited in Somalia in one was regarded as singularly the most bravest visit ever in in in the continent or in Somalia. And it's no secret that we love Turkish delights, and there's a lot of Turkish [00:22:00] investment, and there's a lot of economic integration between the two countries.

And also some educational integration as well, uh, two countries. So giving Istanbul to our girls. It's one way of saying thank you. 

Martine: Of the Hakeem. I ain't a Thank you very much indeed. It's been very nice talking to you.

All right, let's, let's find out a bit more now, Vero, about what you've been up to. What have you been concentrating on? You've been looking at your home country of Cameroon, I think.  

Veronique: Yes, indeed, Martin, and the, the fact that for the last seven years, the civil crisis in Cameroon have gone on unabated, displaced millions of people, thousands of, Them now in, uh, in, uh, IDP camps, in neighboring countries, people unable to go back to their villages because most of these villages were razed down, no agriculture, no schools, nothing is really functioning.

Some of the roads are completely annihilated. So it's been a very, very difficult time with armed conflict going on, different groups You don't know who is who anymore. Your life is in your hands. You can travel at certain times of the day or night. Gunshots can be heard at any time and everybody's running for safety.

It's just been really, really sad. 

Martine: Yeah, very. That sounds appalling. It sounds like that, uh, Cameroon is something that we should look at, uh, in a, a later program. So, uh, let's bookmark that. Okay. Now, let's turn to Malawi. The government in Lilongwe embraced an ambitious program of digitization, including the use of artificial intelligence.

So, we want to find out more about how a core country like Malawi, with fewer than 20 percent of the Population having access to electricity. That's according to the world bank. How can they actually benefit from tech and AI? So we've turned to Martin Kalima, who's manager of tech and digital transformation in Malawi for the Tony Blair Institute.

And he's talking to us from the capital, the long way. Welcome, Martin. Really good to talk to you. Tell us about the program and at what stage is Malawi? In this quest for digital transformation.

Martin: Thank you very much, Martine. And thank you very much, Vero. Nice to meet you on this platform, Vero. Um, so yes, uh, Malawi as a country is, um, on a path to, uh, digital transformation in the, I think the country has made. So. Uh, so much strides, uh, in achieving the digital transformation agenda as a country, but just just to cite a few examples, I think We cannot talk of digital transformation if there is no, uh, guiding principles in terms of guiding policies.

Uh, so recently the country has just updated the national digitalization policy, which Uh, was I think approved last year, uh, and last year, 2023, I would start with the infrastructure. The country right now, uh, has laid over 3000 kilometers of national fiber backbone network. And this is important because, uh, this is a network now that's connecting major sectors of the economy, including, uh, government services, uh, and others.

We are one of the very first countries in Africa. 

Martine: No, I was going to say, is this where the program is starting at the top, if you like, so it's starting with, um, establishing connectivity between government departments. Is that where the priority is at the moment? 

Martin: So, so, so the, the priority is it starts from laying the foundations in terms of the policy, uh, but then we cannot talk of digital transformation or digital tech transformation if we do not have the necessary, uh, infrastructure in place.

So. Infrastructure has to be a priority, and that's what the government has prioritized. Uh, we cannot talk of digital transformation if we do not talk of digital skills. So, digital skills, uh, among the citizens and the workforce in the government is also one priority that the government has, uh, focused on.

Uh, and then, uh, It now gets, uh, down now to the actual service delivery. Yes, we are putting infrastructure in place. What do we do now to make sure that we are streamlining service delivery using the infrastructure that's there, using the digital skills that, uh, that have been, uh, that have been provided to the, to the citizens and to, and to the workforce.

So those are the priorities that the government has, uh, has, has focused on. 

Veronique: Martin, uh, and, um, I must say,

I must say that's a very, very wonderful thing your [00:27:00] company is trying to do for your people, but what are the challenges and how would this change the lives of the average Malawian? Because it sounds very high tech and I don't know if the people really understand what you're doing. How would you explain that?

Explain this to them. So in, in your, is it going to use English or Chechewa, which is the language that most of your people will understand and comprehend what you're doing. 

Martin: I think for the common Malawian, uh, we would now begin to translate all this into service delivery. Uh, I think that's the language that, uh, now a common person would understand to say, what does this mean to a Malawian?

So I'll give you an example, financial transactions. One example that I can cite is, uh, a recent report, uh, that was, uh, done by the reserve bank of Malawi, uh, in 2023, this report revealed that in 2023, uh, Most of the transactions that were reported in the national payment system came from mobile money systems Now this is now people using their mobile phones to transact or to access financial services and all that That's what now a common malayan can begin to understand to say All the investment that the government is doing in bringing internet connectivity in bringing, uh, technology infrastructure in the country is translating now into, uh, critical services like access to, uh, financial services, uh, uh, uh, business transaction through business transactions, through, uh, mobile money services and all that.

Another example that I would also highlight is TBI. I was supporting the government to come up with. E payment systems for services or government institutions that transact on non tax revenue. So we started with the critical one, like the National Registration Bureau. You agree with me that the ID is the anchor of all the services that the government is providing to the citizens.

Now, what we noted was the One component that was actually being, uh, crucial for, uh, the common citizens to access, uh, idea applications and all that was when it comes to payment. So I apply for an ID and then I have to, I had to travel, uh, some kilometers to make a payment, uh, and then I go back to the registration point, uh, to complete the transaction and then this actually was making the transaction to take longer, uh, if not days.

Uh, so what we did was to say, okay, can we, uh, look at a more efficient way, uh, of, um, the payments because I don't have to all the time to travel to the treasury cashier office to make these payments and all that and then come back to the application for the registration point. So what what we did was to support the government to come up with an e payment system for the ID.

So what happens is now, uh, in a space of, uh, minutes, you apply for your ID and then on your mobile phone, uh, you make the payment instead of you traveling kilometers for a payment, you come back, you make a payment. Uh, you make a payment right there. And then the next desk or the next office is processing your ID.

So what remains is now for you to wait for the waiting period to get your ID. Now, this. Has actually, uh, uh, uh, brought efficiency, uh, in terms of the waiting period, uh, the long queues and all that, because people had to leave their businesses for long hours, queue, uh, on the application queue, and then they move queue on the payment queue.

So these are examples that people now begin to understand to say, okay, all the efforts that the government is doing are translating now into efficiency and service delivery. 

Veronique: So, Martin, are you now saying somebody who is in Korongo in the north or somebody who is in the Cholete plantation can actually access all this when you still have the epileptic supply of electricity around the country?

How do you intend to make sure this moves forward? Or that this transaction is smooth? 

Martin: Well, uh, I think as martin said the Area. Yes. Uh, I think we have a lesser percentage of the population that are connected to electricity Uh, but you notice that some of these services, uh, like this e payment service, uh does not necessarily require Like, uh, uh, uh, electricity connection, because I mean, we have right now, I think we, we are looking at the, uh, the mobile phone usage, uh, in the country.

The recent data on mobile phone usage in the country is telling us that, uh, we are at 56, not usage, but, uh, mobile phone ownership, rather we are at 56%. And this is, uh, compared to 2019 when we were at 43 percent of that 56%, you will notice that Uh, 52% or 52.3% thereabout is the rural masses. Uh, and then the 70, uh, 78%.

And there thereabout, uh, uh, urban, urban masses. Now you'd see that. The mobile service providers have provided platforms that, uh, would be seamless in terms of transactions, the USSD platforms where people would use just simple text, simple text message based transactions to transact on that. Uh, but then.

Still coming back now to the issue of electricity connectivity, knowing that where we are going would still need now, because we are moving towards a huge transformation in terms of tech, we'll still need now the connectivity. The government is investing a lot in the connectivity. Uh, there's a lot of investors that have come in into the country to invest in solar connectivity, which is complementing the main grid that the government has their specific sites that as we are talking right now, the government has prioritized to say the rural markets and others, they need to be connected.

So the government is still investing in that, knowing that where we are going, we still need, uh, massive electricity connectivity. 

Martine: Um, Martin, um, tell us about how the Malawian government, which is not terribly wealthy, um, how is it managing to afford this? What kind of funding model is being used to roll out these, uh, technologies?

Martin: Well, we have programs that are running on grants from partners like the World Bank. We have a digital Malawi project that is a World Bank funded project. And this is a project that has enabled connectivity in most of the government sites. Uh, the fiber connectivity program that I talked about, this is a Chinese funded project.

Of course, it's a loan from the Chinese government. We do Get support from development partners. We do get support as a country. We do get support from development partners in terms of grants, uh, and, uh, and, and, and loan facilities. So that's why the government is able to pull, uh, to, to pull off these, uh, achievements.

Martine: Okay. I think Patrick might be with us now, um, at least in spirit and in voice. 

Patrick: Yeah, being somewhat challenged by UK data provisions. Good morning, Patrick. Greetings, Veronique. And very, very good to meet you, Martin. Glad to meet you too, Patrick. 

Martine: I'm going to jump in because I've got another question for you, Martin.

And, um, I was going to ask you about, uh, the regulatory framework, because now you're getting into digitization. You're talking about big data, uh, big data and people's privacy needs protection. What is the government putting in place in terms of the regulatory environment? 

Martin: Uh, very good question. So, So, uh, recently, I think, uh, towards the end of last year, uh, the government has enacted a data protection bill, which is fundamental as when we are talking of digital transformation, because now there has to be assurance of people's privacy to people's data.

So several regulations have been put in place. that developed to support, uh, to support the act. And that's, uh, one of the foundational steps that the government has taken. And when we are talking of, uh, I, I, I think Martin, when we were talking, chatting the other day, I shared with you that, uh, we have also, as a government, we have also taken steps now to begin to talk of AI.

I wouldn't say we, uh, there, uh, to now begin to say, okay, Uh, this is it, but, uh, foundational steps have, have been taken, uh, in 2023 last year, we convened and TBI led on this one. We convened a big summit, an AI for leaders summit, which brought [00:36:00] together both locals and, uh, uh, some experts from the region to talk about if Malawi is to begin to talk about AI, what are the.

Foundation steps that have to be taken. And then we looked at our our policy landscape. So there's a road map that was created to say, Okay, we need to begin to look at the enabling policies. We need to look at the enabling regulations and all that so that we can now begin to talk of AI. But suffice to say that you Now you I think you've you've have followed.

You notice that institutions like the Malawi University for Science and Technology. Uh, they have established, uh, centers centers of excellency on A. I. Uh, and actually, right now they're about to start running out data science trainings for Uh, various, uh, students and even, uh, other citizens. So these are some of the foundational steps that have been taken.

Martine: The Tony Blair Institute, Martin, advocates AI as a tool of improvement in terms of governance. How is that likely to work? 

Martin: Well, uh, I think let's, uh, let's, let's look at it from different perspectives. Let's start looking at it from the service delivery point of view. Uh, if we are talking of, uh, AI, uh, enabled service delivery.

Let's, let's take for example, health service delivery. We need to look at the data analytics. We, we have big data in health. We need to look at how decisions could be made. How do we begin to analyze all the health data that we have? Uh, can AI play, uh, play a role in all that? Uh, let's look at the agricultural services.

How do we bring in AI to begin to. support farmers in terms of predicting the weather patterns, predicting what crops to plant and all that. So I think the point is just to look at what can AI play, uh, what role can AI play across all the service delivery structures, uh, to bring efficiency in terms of, uh, in terms of service 

Veronique: Martin, can I just quickly ask, how have people reacted?

To the fact that this is what you are trying to do to create an enabling environment for them to live better lives. Have they been very receptive or they are skeptical? Because there are still people who don't believe in all this. They think I need at least, you know, At the end of the day, to have something in my stomach to go to bed and sleep properly than some highfalutin ideas that may not change my life in any shape or form.

Martin: Well, that's, that's, that's an interesting question. Um, well, I think, I think for, for, for one to accept, An idea or a new or a new idea or initiative. I think they have to see what is the need for them. Uh, so I wouldn't say that there has been, uh, like comprehensive, uh, analysis to see how The reception has been like, but I think we can judge, uh, from the reactions on the small, small wins that, uh, we have seen, like, for example, I talked about, about the, uh, the e-payment systems.

Uh, I, I think the, the reception, uh, was great in the sense that, uh, it's bringing efficiency, uh. In the processes, uh, of, uh, of, uh, of the service delivery, uh, where now one is saving their time, uh, people are saving their, uh, their money. Uh, so that brings, uh, brings excitement, uh, in the masses. Uh, so those are some of the examples that I can cite, but honestly, I think there's maybe need to go deep and then understand to say what's the reception like, but I think when it brings in something that, uh, is.

A win for you as a citizen becomes exciting for you to, to, to embrace it. 

Veronique: Martin, when I was in Malawi at one point during the introduction of the bus, people didn't understand the concept of having just one driver at the bottom and an empty, uh, seat upstairs with no driver there and most of them refused to go upstairs and I had, I

I'm just wondering with this technology that you're trying to give them, are they asking you? 

Martin: I talked about digital skills. Um, so I think the delivery is being done as a whole package. It's uh, it becomes it becomes hard you bring all these tech transformation and all that to the masses, but they don't know how to use technology.

It's hard for them to accept. And that's why now I was saying the government has invested actually, in digital skills, uh, capacity building, digital skills training to get the people now understand to say what is it, uh, that the government is bringing to them. I'll, I'll cite an example, uh, with the workforce in the civil service, uh, the TBI worked with the government recently, uh, to train, Uh, the workforce in the civil service.

I think we trained about over 100 civil servants in digital skills, uh, across different levels, uh, beginners and those that are, at least have somewhat knowledge and that is trickling down the digital Malawi project that I talked about has a component that is also looking at digital skills training for the public.

Just to make sure that all this transformation as it is coming, uh, the public knows exactly to say, okay, this is what is the need for us. And this is exactly how we need to use tech. There's so much opportunity as far as tech is concerned. But the question is, uh, do the citizens know how to, how to use tech?

So the government is investing in digital skills as well. So that addresses those fears. I, I have been on a double decker bus, uh, when I was, when I was a child, It was, it was really, it was really hard to be convinced to get onto the double decker to go onto the upper deck when you see that there's no one driving it up there.

I agree with you.

Martine: I'm just hopeful that maybe Patrick is, is, Patrick, are you with us? 

Patrick: Yes. Well, either I'm with you or AI is with you. One, one of the two. Yeah, I guess I've come in and out of this conversation, Martin, unfortunately, but it's it's absolutely fascinating. And I what we're now seeing, and I don't know if this is going to take you off your track, is particularly in the West, the increasing use of AI in in politics, and deep fakes, but Um, A.

I. Constructed campaigns on social media and the like, and I wondered, um, in terms of the difficulties or the downsides of A. I. Whether you worry that it's as it is in the West beginning to distort political campaigns in the West. Do you think it's going to distort politics in Africa and you'll get a lot more sort of fake political campaigns, unpopular leaders?

appearing to be very popular on social media, thanks to AI. Well, 

Martin: uh, it's, I think those are fears that, uh, are there across, but it, uh, speaks as well to what I had alluded to earlier to say, uh, what are the, the legal and regulatory frameworks that have been established as countries are embracing AI. So I think that's one of the critical issues to look at.

Uh, and the, when we're in the AI summit that I had alluded to earlier on, one of the critical components that we looked at is, was to say, okay, uh, as a country, we [00:44:00] need to seriously think of Uh, the regulatory frameworks as far as AI is concerned so that we are, we are protecting people across from all angles so that we do not have scenarios where there's massive abuse of AI.

I 

Patrick: mean, it's very early days everywhere, isn't it? Because the West isn't very good at regulating AI either, as we're seeing with the current, um, U. S. Election campaign. 

Martin: And I think as the I take it as, uh, a learning journey. So we're learning on the for lack of a better word. As far as I is concerned, would say learning on the job 

Veronique: matching hand on heart.

Would you say this is the best thing for your country? Wouldn't wouldn't it be better if you use this money to do something for your people instead of going into all this? 

Martin: No, no, let me, let me, let me clear your point out that, uh, as I mentioned at the beginning, the fundamentals that, uh, I would,I would say, uh, need to be focused on, which actually, uh, our country is also focusing on is, uh, to put in place actually the neighboring, the neighboring, uh, environment first.

So let's look at. Infrastructure, the redness as a country. Let's just look at digital redness as a country. Okay, when we address the digital redness as a country, that's when we can now begin to go. I would say that's when we can begin to go for a throttle. So, uh, just like, uh, other countries, I think Malawi is also on the starting step, like the foundational steps as far as AI is concerned.

Uh, not that we have, as a country, we have got full throttle to say, okay, uh, this is it. Uh, we are going full throttle AI. No, I think we are, uh, we're taking the small, small, small steps. 

Martine: Can I jump in now and say a big thank you, Martin Kalima, out of Lilongwe. Thank you very much indeed for taking us through the ins and outs of the digital transformation ambitions of [00:46:00] Malawi.

And Berenique, thank you for the Double Deaf Arts anecdote. And 

Veronique: I will say to Martin, Zikomo wambiri. 

Martin: Zikomo wambiri naruso. 

Martine: Oh, okay. This is really showing off. Thank you, Martin. That was really interesting. 

Martin: Thank you very much everyone. 

Martine: But Pat, you are in the French capital and of course the first round of elections due at the end of the week.

How's it looking? Could France really have a 28 year old far right Prime Minister by next month? 

Patrick: Yes, I mean the guy you're talking about is Jordan Bardella, who is 28, so he's a good 10 years younger than President Emmanuel Macron's last Prime Minister. Prime Minister Gabriella Tao. Um, and it's looking extremely tight, uh, in terms of, will the far right, uh, get a working majority in the, in the next, uh, National Assembly in France right now that they're tipped to get about two 40 seats, uh, which they will bring a few fellow travelers in from the so called center, right, which is leading to the far right.

And they could, they could control the government that gives them the prime minister's job and they would get some of the most important ministries. So this essentially will be the first far right, some would say, neo fascist government France has had since the occupation of the Second World War and the Vichy government.

So it's a big moment for France. 

Martine: So why should this matter to Africa and indeed to Africans? 

Patrick: Well it matters on every single dimension because what France does or doesn't do in Africa is of great importance in West and Central Africa. So, uh, French African policy [00:48:00] is in turmoil anyway, even before the, Far right.

Uh, started winning more votes. Um, but what you're seeing is, uh, the Senegalese former prime minister, uh, coming out very, very strongly and saying this election is a global election. It's important for Africa because the far right has a record of racism and uh, Restrictive immigration controls. They also have a record going back to the National Front, which was the former party that Marine Le Pen ran before she changed the name to Rassemblement Nationale.

Um, and, and they were very violent and much of their violence was racist and they, they, she cites a case of them throwing a, a Moroccan demonstrator in the, in the Seine where he, he, River Seine where he drowned. So there's a real fear that, uh, if the far right win in France, that would step up the level of racist violence in the [00:49:00] country amongst other things.

It would also, um, Give free reign to the already fairly aggressive policing tactics used in France against demonstrations by people of a leftist persuasion or, um, multi racial demonstrations. There's a real fear that it's going to change the climate of French politics if the far right get in. 

Martine: Well, we've already seen that outpouring of vile racist abuse to the singer Aya Nakamura.

Remember, we did a show about that not too long ago. That's right. Yeah. We've also now, haven't we, from some of the French national football team, Les Bleus, many of whom, of course, are of immigrant stock. 

Patrick: Well, in fact, most of them are, um, from immigrant stock. That's absolutely right. The captain, uh, Mbappé, Kilian Mbappé, his dad is Cameroonian and his mom was from Algeria.

Uh, [00:50:00] his, uh, and his, uh, teammate, uh, Marcel Touram, uh, is, is from the Caribbean. And he, they made the points, um, Touram made the point that they, There is zero disagreement within the team that the far right, Rassemblement Nationale, must be stopped, uh, at the National Assembly elections. It will be a disaster.

For the country, if they win and Mbappe concurred saying, I don't want to be the captain of a football team that doesn't represent the values. I believe I, that I hold dear to my heart, the traditional French revolutionary values of Liberté, Fraternité and Egalité. Uh, and so they, they've come out very, very strongly and that's hugely significant because of we're right in the middle of the Euros football tournament, uh, across the continent.

And France is one of the countries that's tipped to win. [00:51:00] So, uh, what Mbappé and Thuram says, um, is hugely important to the national morale. And as people watch the football, they're going to have, going to have it in the back of their minds. 

Veronique: Right. Vero, any thoughts? Well, I'm just wondering, uh, it brings us to this scenario in France and in some other countries in Europe where if you have a foreign descent, if you're doing well, you are a French citizen, you are applauded, you are worshipped.

To say the least, but then as soon as you start faltering or you're not doing well, there, you are reminded of where you came from. You are referred to as Cameron born or Nigerian born or South African born. But as soon as you become the hero and make them proud, oh, you are French National, you are doing well for them.

So, but with what, uh, Killian Baia and the rest are doing in, in the national French team, will people listen to that. And would that persuade [00:52:00] them to change their mind and think of the equality and the liberty that you talked about? 

Patrick: I, I think it will have an effect because Mbappé is a tremendously popular guy.

I mean, he was playing for Paris Saint Germain, you know, the best football team, most successful football team in the country. He's just an incredible player. I mean, he's You know, some people would say he rates up there with, with Pele, uh, and Maradona. I mean, he's an amazingly good player. Um, and so he represents sort of, uh, excellence on anyone's, uh, measure.

Uh, and, um, he's been fairly sort of, um, balanced in what he's saying. He's not, you know, so I'm not, I'm standing up for values. And I think people do take this seriously. The 

Veronique: question is, if Mbappe decides to sit on his bench and and refuses to play, would all the other players do the same? And if they do that, it will be a big revolution in France.

Even more than the revolution that we know that [00:53:00] led to the storming of the Bastille and bringing down the government and all that. But It's a situation where we really need to watch and see because football is a uniting force in every country on the planet earth. 

Martine: Absolutely Vero. Well, we can thank Patrick for that.

That's it for this edition of Africa Here and Now. If you're enjoying the conversations, go to our website www. africahereandnow. com All past episodes are there, and there's other interesting stuff there too. We're available on all major audio platforms, as well as on your smart speaker, and we're on YouTube.

Follow us on the socials. We're on Instagram and Facebook. I'm on X at Martine Dennis. We recorded this on Monday the 24th of June 2024. Our producer is Anne Busby. Our original music is by Enric Adam. Anna DeWolf Evans and Charlie Pandon put everything together. [00:54:00] Our thanks to our guests, Abdi Hakeem and Martin.

And from Patrick, Veronique and me, thank you for your company.